By: Selena Simmons-Duffin

SIMMONS-DUFFIN: I also spoke to Amy O’Donnell. She’s with the Texas Alliance for Life, and she told me she does not support adding more exceptions to Texas’ abortion laws.

AMY O’DONNELL: I do believe the Texas laws are working as designed. I also believe that we have a responsibility to educate Texas women and families on the resources that we have available to them.

SIMMONS-DUFFIN: She says there are private organizations that can help with funerals, and her group would support public funds being used for that, too. Samantha and her family are getting some extra support. Since NPR published her story yesterday, many people were moved to donate to her funeral fundraising page, and they’ve now donated $30,000 and counting.


MARTINEZ-BELTRAN: That victory, however, was short-lived. Just a few weeks later, in another special session, Texas lawmakers passed a sweeping anti-abortion package that included a ban on abortions after 20 weeks of gestation. The U.S. Supreme Court eventually struck down key provisions of the bill, but by then, more than half of the state’s abortion providers closed. The story of how Texas got to this place of banning nearly all abortions is one that has taken decades.

AMY O’DONNELL: We’ve seen a lot of incremental gains over time.

MARTINEZ-BELTRAN: This is Amy O’Donnell, the communications director of the Texas Alliance for Life, a group that advocates against abortion.

O’DONNELL: The majority of Texans are pro-life, and we see this because they elect pro-life legislators who advocate for life.

MARTINEZ-BELTRAN: But polls tell a different story. Seventy-eight percent of Texas voters support some sort of access to abortion. Only 15% said it should never be allowed. That’s according to a survey released in April by the Texas Politics Project. Despite that, the state has continued curbing abortion, including passing a so-called trigger law, which now takes effect in 30 days. Most recently, last year, Governor Greg Abbott signed SB 8. That law, the first of its kind in the country, banned abortions as early as six weeks, empowering private citizens to enforce the law. Now that the Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade, O’Donnell says the state will work to support women who are pregnant.

O’DONNELL: Texas is ready to take care of women in our state. And as we’ve seen, Texas prioritized the health of women and the life of babies.

MARTINEZ-BELTRAN: She points to the state’s program called Alternatives to Abortion as an example of that. The program provides assistance, counselling and maternity classes. But it’s also been criticized by Texas Democrats for its $100-million price tag and lack of transparency. But advocates for abortion rights say they’re not completely hopeless.

By: Ron Elving

ELVING: On a national scale, it’s at odds with the clear majority. The clear majority supports abortion or abortion with some restrictions. But it does fit the mood in some states. Now, the Texas Alliance for Life organization that’s calling the tune now in the nation’s second most populous state, this group says it wants to end abortion even before six weeks, right up to the point of conception. So we are at a crossroads. Support for abortion may grow with generational change – a lot of indication of that. But right now, the most dedicated anti-abortion advocates have the upper hand in much of the country based on their electoral success.



This has been one of the most consequential weeks in decades for abortion rights in America. The Supreme Court’s decision not to intervene in a Texas law banning most abortions suddenly imposed the most stringent limits in the U.S. on the procedure. We spoke yesterday with an abortion rights advocate in Texas, and we’re joined now by Joe Pojman, executive director of the Texas Alliance for Life.

Thanks for being here.

JOE POJMAN: Thank you.

SHAPIRO: Some people have described the Supreme Court’s action this week as a de facto reversal of Roe v. Wade. Is that how you see it?

POJMAN: Not at all. I think this is very preliminary. I think the Supreme Court is just allowing the law to stay in effect for a matter of days or perhaps weeks while those procedural issues are being sorted out by the lower court, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.

SHAPIRO: We spoke yesterday, as I mentioned, with an abortion rights advocate in Texas, Amy Hagstrom Miller, president of Whole Woman’s Health, and I’d like to play you part of the exchange she had with my co-host, Mary Louise Kelly. Mary Louise asked whether links to resources on the Whole Woman’s Health website could be grounds for a lawsuit, and here’s what Miller said.

AMY HAGSTROM MILLER: We understand that some of that might be framed as aiding and abetting. I think it’s interesting they’re already trying to criminalize that, even the language they’re using. But all of that information is available in the public domain.

SHAPIRO: From where you sit, Joe Pojman, do you view that as a violation of the law?

POJMAN: Probably not. It’s not so clear how that’s going to shake out. And again, a lot has to be determined by the courts. But if they are referring for helping someone get an abortion in Texas, that’s what the law is intended to address. Out of state, it’s not so clear.

SHAPIRO: The specific enforcement mechanism of the law is very unusual. People who successfully bring lawsuits get $10,000 and their attorney fees covered, and abortion rights advocates say this will create an aggressive industry of anti-abortion bounty hunters. Is that your intention?

POJMAN: The – I think the Legislature in Texas was very frustrated because similar laws that amount to a ban on abortion before the baby’s viable – in other words, can live outside the womb if born alive – those have always been blocked by the federal and state courts. The Legislature was looking for a new approach. And while many state laws do have civil liability to some extent – typically, the grandparents or the mother or father could sue – this is a whole new level. No one’s tried anything like this. So we’re going to have to see how the courts handle it.

SHAPIRO: Well, that explains why you would allow individuals to bring lawsuits – it helps to avoid the law being overturned by the courts. But it doesn’t explain the $10,000 reward for successful cases. And these cases can be brought by people outside of Texas. This is what leads people to say it’s going to create an industry of bounty hunters. Do you support that provision?

POJMAN: Our goal and the goal in the state of Texas is to protect as many unborn babies from what we think as the tragedy of abortion. So we’re going to have to see how this shakes out.

SHAPIRO: I mean, do you think that there will be what people have described as bounty hunters, and do you think that’s a good thing?

POJMAN: The goal of the bill is to protect babies from abortion, and hopefully there will just be universal compliance, and there won’t be any lawsuits have to be filed at that point.

SHAPIRO: You say hopefully there will be universal compliance, but already there is a website called Pro Life Whistleblowers encouraging people to send in anonymous tips. Can you tell how many of these are in good faith and how many come from your opponents who have been telling people to flood the site with bad information?

POJMAN: Yeah, I have no information. You know, and just honestly, our organization has not gotten involved in any of the enforcement challenges. So we’re not going to be involved in that type of litigation.

SHAPIRO: Even some abortion rights opponents have expressed concern that this law does not include any exceptions for rape or incest. Was that something that your group debated? Tell us about the reasons for it.

POJMAN: Oh, we have supported protection for the unborn child, even if that child is created in the act of rape. Rape is a terrible crime. It’s an assault against the woman or – same for incest. But we think the best thing for all parties involved, including the unborn child and the mother, is for the state of Texas and any number of organizations to encourage her to give birth to that child; keep the child herself if she wishes or place that child for adoption.

SHAPIRO: I just want to clarify – you believe that asking a woman who has experienced rape or incest to carry the pregnancy to term is not only in the best interests of the child but also the best interests of the mother?

POJMAN: We really do. And women who have been involved in our organization, who have been impregnated as rape, have given birth to the child, sometimes placed for adoption, sometimes keeping the child for themselves, and they really believe that was the best option for themselves, as well as the unborn child. And we really agree with that.

SHAPIRO: I hear your hesitation about whether this is likely to stand, and you’re saying you still need to let the courts work it out, and you’re being cautious. Abortion rights groups say, look; this is the most conservative Supreme Court in more than a generation. It’s only a matter of time until they overturn Roe v. Wade, and they don’t look likely to strike down this Texas law, either. Is that how you see it?

POJMAN: Our goal is that the Supreme Court will change what we consider to be the terrible Roe v. Wade precedent that ties the hands of the state legislatures. Our goal is that unborn children in Texas and throughout the country will someday be protected from abortion up to the moment of conception, fertilization. When that happens, we have hope and prayed for decades. We will have to see how the Supreme Court handles this in the coming term.

SHAPIRO: Joe Pojman is executive director of the Texas Alliance for Life.

Thank you very much.

POJMAN: Thank you.

By: Emma Bowman

Joe Pojman, executive director of the anti-abortion group Texas Alliance for Life, said the Supreme Court’s apparent readiness to take a new look at abortion rights gives opponents such as himself some hope that Texas and other states will see an outcome that gives them the latitude for such restrictions.

Although he expects the so-called Texas Heartbeat Act to face a series of court challenges, he wants to see such bills go even further, he said, “even up to the moment of conception — fertilization.”

“We think the state has a right and a responsibility to protect all citizens, including the most vulnerable citizens — unborn children — from harm, and we believe that the state has a responsibility to protect those children from abortion,” he said.